"Your powers are weak old man"

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

Krash wrote:

I wouldn't call it a "cop out" because (from strictly a film-making view) fencing and swordsmanship in movies wasn't that common until recently.

*cough*Errol Flynn*cough*

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Nice try, but I didn't say swordfighting wasn't "popular" I said it wasn't as common/practiced in the movies of the 1970s (when ANH was made) as it is today. Trying to compare a Flynn movie to anything by today's standards is like trying to compare Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds in a home run derby.

By the 1970s movie swordfighting had become a lost art, so while the ANH fight seems lame by today's standards at the time that was the best there was back in the day.

Satxer · Jedi Knight Joined: Jul 04, 2005 Posts: 805

Vader was probably getting at the fact that he had more ability to move around and Pwnzor him being he was more machine.

jasconsolojediknight · Youngling Joined: Jan 30, 2006 Posts: 922

I don't think he had that much more ability,on cloud city yes but then on the second death star luke was moving better then vader. What made it a good fight was the powers were so close. Think like levels.

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

jasconsolojediknight wrote:

I don't think he had that much more ability,on cloud city...

Seriously? Cause IMO, it seemed like after made the first strike (and Vader throwing Luke to the ground) Vader set the pace for the entire duel. Sure, Luke had some "most impressive" tricks up his sleeve...but it seemed like Vader had a clear advantage in the duel. It was almost as if Vader was toying with him...in an efort to make Luke angry and more open to drifting to the dark side.

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

I think you're misreading his post, Geoff. (Take it from someone who has to read through 60 papers at a time full of bad punctuation and grammar.) I think jasconsolo is actually agreeing with you about Vader clearly being stronger than Luke in ESB. I also think he was disagreeing with Satxer about Vader being able to "pwnzor" Obi-Wan easily. I could be wrong, but here's how interpreted his post, rewritten with clearer punctuation and grammar:

"I don't think he (Vader) had that much more ability (than Obi-Wan did in ANH). Yes, on Cloud City Vader was more powerful than Luke, but then on the second Death Star Luke was moving better than Vader."

Padme92 · Treasury Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 2123

I think that having to deal with such a old Alec and David created a limit to what could be done...David was younger then Alec in ANH, which could be by he looked stronger. But Mark Hamill was a much younger man then David, but the story was that Luke had to grow into a warrior. However to me Vader was still weaker in ESB then Luke, Luke was stronger, but like how Anakin learned from Obi-wan strengh doesn't always mean skills.

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

Padme92 wrote:

However to me Vader was still weaker in ESB then Luke, Luke was stronger, but like how Anakin learned from Obi-wan strengh doesn't always mean skills.

Um.........what? Luke was stronger than Vader in ESB? You must have watched a version I have yet to see. Luke was nothing more than an over aged, know nothing, youngling. He was barely faster if at all and he was thoroughly and completely beaten to a pulp. Had he not been Vaders son, Vader would have killed Luke in the first 2 minutes of the fight. And you can't argue that he could not have killed Luke in the first 2 minutes, it would not have taken him long to Force choke Luke till dead.

Padme92 · Treasury Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 2123

Coyote wrote:

Um.........what? Luke was stronger than Vader in ESB? You must have watched a version I have yet to see. Luke was nothing more than an over aged, know nothing, youngling. He was barely faster if at all and he was thoroughly and completely beaten to a pulp. Had he not been Vaders son, Vader would have killed Luke in the first 2 minutes of the fight. And you can't argue that he could not have killed Luke in the first 2 minutes, it would not have taken him long to Force choke Luke till dead.

Hehe...I thing that Luke in ESB was phyically stronger than Vader. Younger, spunkyer, etc...however Vader had the experience and mentally stronger in a fight than Luke (hence the Anakin vs Obi-wan cause Anakin could have over powered phyically Obi-wan maybe but Obi-wan had the brains in the fight as well). Luke lost that fight (in my point of view) because he was inexperienced, not because he was phyically weaker. After the prequels and ROTS, I find that Vader had limits to himself, the suit and just overall...that is showed when Luke gains the same experience and mental fighting that Vader had so in ROTJ Luke becomes the superior because now he has the experience/mental and physical aspects of the fight.

And yes I would argue that Vader could have killed Luke in the first 2 minutes..... Razz

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

Luke facing Vader in ESB is like a high school freshman basketball player facing Michael Jordan in a game of one on one, with Michael giving the kid the ball first and taking it easy on him to see what the kid's got.

Padme92 · Treasury Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 2123

TheRandomMenace wrote:

Luke facing Vader in ESB is like a high school freshman basketball player facing Michael Jordan in a game of one on one, with Michael giving the kid the ball first and taking it easy on him to see what the kid's got.

I'm sure a high school freshmen could woop Michael Jordan's game...because Jordan ain't the young star he use to be...and a kid can have game depending on people....Jordan now vs maybe someone like (I can't believe I am saying this) Leborn....I wouldn't be so sure who would beat who.

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Actually, Em's comment makes sense, from a certain point of view. As it pertains in ANH (trying to leave ESB for the ESB board) Vader isn't quite the fighter he would have been (at the same age) if Anakin hadn't been burned in the original fight with Obi-Wan. It's a bit of reverse logic, but by the time of ANH,,,both he and Obi-Wan had long since seen their prime. And with the limitations of the suit, Vader is weaker in the sense that he's restricted in what he can do.

Now, as it pertains to the ESB duel...I think you can make the argument that what Luke lacked in fighting experience, he was still younger, quicker then Vader. At first, Vader tried intimidating him with his dueling skill, trapping him in the carbon freeze chamber, and it wasn't until Vader started using his Force abilities to cheat and when Vader got angry about getting clipped on the shoulder (thankfully Marcus is cooler then that) that he took the advantage in the fight. Vader used his skill, tricks, and raw strength to overpower Luke...but Luke had the combination of youth and agility (which Vader can't match)

Now, bringin' it all back to ANH...I think Vader's "enhanced" strength over Obi-Wan would have given him the advantage; if Obi-Wan's intent was on defeating Vader.