Does Tarkin know who Vader is? - possible EU spoilers

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

And back to the original topic of did Tarkin know that Vader was Anakin.......I think so. In fact to me its beyond any doubt. If you listen to the conversation, Tarkin knows who Vaders former Master was. Being that Vader only had one former Master, that had to be Obi-wan. Obi-Wan and Anakin were the Heroes of The Clone Wars. Obi-Wan only had one padawan. Connect the dots, the picture is clear.

Padme92 · Treasury Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 2123

TheRandomMenace wrote:

What movie were you watching? Padme's death was clearly the result of a broken heart at the hand (figuratively and literally) of Anakin Skywalker.

Well...if you really want to see different views of this alone (yes I know... Thread Hijack!

) Anakin might not of been the only idea of how Padme died. As the many times I've watched the movie along with Geoff, we talk a lot during the movie. I don't even think we actually "watch" it anymore! Razz

Anyways, you could see how the movie is cut as to show that another possiblity is that Palpatine is somehow through the force killing Padme to give life back to Anakin...see how they cut back and forth from Padme dying and Vader coming to life. With it just being by chance that the final piece to when Vader is born, the next shot is Padme giving her last breathe. George Lucas never said, Anakin killls Padme point, no questions asked. It depends on how you want to see the story evolve.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

TheRandomMenace wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

2. Obi-Wan killed Padme.

What movie were you watching? Padme's death was clearly the result of a broken heart at the hand (figuratively and literally) of Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan had no involvement with her death. Did Anakin Force-choke her because he believed she and Obi-Wan were in cahoots with one another? Yes. But Obi-Wan was not directly responsible for Padme's death in any way.

(I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice that point...glad it finally happened. Smile

)

I was watching Revenge of the Sith, in which Obi-Wan betrayed both Anakin and Padme. That betrayal turned the rift between Anakin and Padme into a gaping wound...and it was from that psychic wound that Padme died: Remember, the Force-choke was not the cause of death, the doctors told Obi-Wan and Yoda there was nothing medically wrong with Padme.

And, thus, it was still possible for Padme to have survived, if only she hadn't lost Anakin. But Obi-Wan fixed that, when he betrayed and attempted to kill Anakin. He may have succeeded only in maiming Anakin's body, and Anakin may have survived being left for dead, but Anakin was driven as deep into the dark side as it was possible for him to go, farther than Padme could tolerate, such that she effectively lost Anakin, and, with him, her life.

TheRandomMenace wrote:

(This post is entirely under the assumption that you honestly believe Obi-Wan killed Padme, and not that you were referring to some EU source regarding one way in which the Empire spun the truth to meet their own ends; I've read very little EU because of the inconsistencies with the movies)

Nothing from the EU. Just the film. Padme died as a result of circumstances created by Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Jedi Minch

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Coyote wrote:

While Obi-Wan did not kill Padme directly, he in some ways responsible for her death. Had Obi-Wan not hitched a ride with Padme and stepped off her ship, would Anakin have choked her? Anakin felt betrayed that she brought Obi-Wan there to kill him. In the book version of RoTS Anakin also had it in his head that Obi-wan and Padme may have been foolin around behind his back.

Your insight serves you well, my friend. The answer to your question, I believe, is, "No."

Coyote wrote:

Padmes death was poorly done. I'm sorry but a young woman doesn't lose the will to live just because her husband has gone off the deep end. Especially when she is having twins.

Poorly done, from a certain point of view. It might also be said that her death revealed that she was a weak individual, unable to face the consequences of her actions.

Jedi Minch

Padme92 · Treasury Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 2123

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Nothing from the EU. Just the film. Padme died as a result of circumstances created by Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Jedi Minch

Now if we try to start that game....you can either go as far as Yoda killed Padme, because Yoda sent Obi-wan to kill Anakin at all cost, so Padme would have died whenever Obi-wan (through Yoda's order) killed or found Anakin....or you can go to as far as Palpatine left Yoda no choice but to kill Anakin, which Yoda then sent Obi-wan to do his dirty work...and on and on....

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Poorly done, from a certain point of view. It might also be said that her death revealed that she was a weak individual, unable to face the consequences of her actions.

Jedi Minch

Or Lucas has been the filmmaker to have many mythological ideas in it...anyone ever heard of the women in myths dying of a broken heart? Maybe Padme was the symbolic woman to represent that idea storytelling...we went through this argument before somewhere I think?....

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Coyote wrote:

In fact to me its beyond any doubt.

While I won't contest the notion that Tarkin has some knowledge of Vader's background as a former jedi, I still have doubts about the extend of what he knew. One of the things I noticed in the movies that "Dark Lord" reinforced was the importance of secrecy within the Sith (say that last bit 3X fast). Palpatine didn't trust Vader and built his suit with inferior parts, Vader realized this and learned not to trust Palpatine's motives giving him tasks. Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin and assigned him to make sure Tarkin didn't use the DS to seize power for himself. Sith don't trust each other...much less their underlings with total disclosure.

Jedi-Minch wrote:

And, thus, it was still possible for Padme to have survived, if only she hadn't lost Anakin.

I disagree with that assumption. The only way Padme could have survived would have been to give into Anakin's corrupted point of view and that's something she would never have done. I will admit that Obi-Wan played a part in the split, but it was Anakin who betrayed them...not the other way around.

Perhaps this point would make for a better ROTS conversation. Idea

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

Krash wrote:

Coyote wrote:

In fact to me its beyond any doubt.

While I won't contest the notion that Tarkin has some knowledge of Vader's background as a former jedi, I still have doubts about the extend of what he knew. One of the things I noticed in the movies that "Dark Lord" reinforced was the importance of secrecy within the Sith (say that last bit 3X fast). Palpatine didn't trust Vader and built his suit with inferior parts, Vader realized this and learned not to trust Palpatine's motives giving him tasks. Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin and assigned him to make sure Tarkin didn't use the DS to seize power for himself. Sith don't trust each other...much less their underlings with total disclosure.

Qoutes from the book:
Vader:"He is here"
Tarkin:"Obi Wan Kenobi? Thats impossible. What makes you think so?
Vader "A stirring in the Force, of a kind I've felt in the presence of my old master. It is unmistakable."

The movie is not exactly the same, but its close.(I just watched that part of the movie just to be sure.) I take from this that: Tarkin knew who Vaders former Master was. ("Obi Wan Kenobi?") Being that Obi-Wan only had one Padawan, its pretty easy to come to the conclusion that Tarkin also knows that Vader is the former Anakin Skywalker. Ya don't stay alive in Palpatines Empire if you aren't good at your job and at least fairly smart. Its not a stretch of the imagination that Tarkin could easliy figure out that Vader was Anakin at one time.

Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin? He put him in command of the most powerfull weapon ever divised. Had Tarkin wanted to he could have taken the death Star to Couruscant(or where ever Palpatines location was.) and blown Paplatine to bits. I think Palpy put the one person he DID trust in charge of the Death Star.

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Coyote wrote:

Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin? He put him in command of the most powerfull weapon ever divised. Had Tarkin wanted to he could have taken the death Star to Couruscant(or where ever Palpatines location was.) and blown Paplatine to bits. I think Palpy put the one person he DID trust in charge of the Death Star.

But wait, I got LFL authorized proof that that's not exactly the case! In the most recent edition of "The Essential Guide to Characters" here's a section from Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin's bio:

Tarkin couldn't help but imagine what a colossal bargaining chip he would hold should he train the Death Star superlaser on Coruscant. Perhaps anticipating this kind of treachery, Palpatine sent Darth Vader to the battle station to watch closely over Tarkin's shoulder.

AH-HA! (pg 181 BTW) There you have it, according to this...Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin with the keys to his new Fraudian complex, and sent Darth Vader to make sure Tarkin didn't get overly ambitious.

I think it's fair to say then that while Tarkin may have been aware of Darth Vader's true identity (which I'm willing to admit), it was motivated more by the goal of political backstabbing rather then "can't we all just get along" cooperation. Consider the fact that Tarkin didn't step in to stop the Moffs from "bickering" over Vader's authority until he started Force-choking Admiral Motti!

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

Krash wrote:

Coyote wrote:

Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin? He put him in command of the most powerfull weapon ever divised. Had Tarkin wanted to he could have taken the death Star to Couruscant(or where ever Palpatines location was.) and blown Paplatine to bits. I think Palpy put the one person he DID trust in charge of the Death Star.

But wait, I got LFL authorized proof that that's not exactly the case! In the most recent edition of "The Essential Guide to Characters" here's a section from Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin's bio:

Tarkin couldn't help but imagine what a colossal bargaining chip he would hold should he train the Death Star superlaser on Coruscant. Perhaps anticipating this kind of treachery, Palpatine sent Darth Vader to the battle station to watch closely over Tarkin's shoulder.

AH-HA! (pg 181 BTW) There you have it, according to this...Palpatine didn't trust Tarkin with the keys to his new Fraudian complex, and sent Darth Vader to make sure Tarkin didn't get overly ambitious.

I think it's fair to say then that while Tarkin may have been aware of Darth Vader's true identity (which I'm willing to admit), it was motivated more by the goal of political backstabbing rather then "can't we all just get along" cooperation. Consider the fact that Tarkin didn't step in to stop the Moffs from "bickering" over Vader's authority until he started Force-choking Admiral Motti!

The newest version of the Guide to Characters huh? Ok you have a canon source. But I still don't get why Palpy would put Tarkin on the DS1 if he didn't trust him. Makes no sense. Why not just make him have an accident, or make a martyr of him and say the Rebels killed him. Vader in ANH is still just Palpys muscle man. What authority does he really have? Tarkin orders him around, Moffs take to him like a punk. Makes ya wonder how much power Vader really had in ANH.

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Coyote wrote:

But I still don't get why Palpy would put Tarkin on the DS1 if he didn't trust him. Makes no sense. Why not just make him have an accident, or make a martyr of him and say the Rebels killed him. Vader in ANH is still just Palpys muscle man. What authority does he really have? Tarkin orders him around, Moffs take to him like a punk. Makes ya wonder how much power Vader really had in ANH.

I think the reason Tarkin was put in charge of the DS project is very similar to a scene in the movie "The Right Stuff" where the politicians were worried that the Russians had developed better rocket technology (with help of German scientists they captured in WWII) and the head American/German scientist said: "Our Germans are better then their Germans"

Tarkin's talent was in developing weapons technology, so Palpatine used him where his talents best suited Palpatine's objective. ANd as you said, he sent his enforcer Vaser to make sure Tarkin didn't try anything funny.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Coyote wrote:

The newest version of the Guide to Characters huh? Ok you have a canon source.

When did the Essential Guides become canon? As freely as George Lucas has blown away the print material, I thought it was generally agreed the only truly canon source was the Saga itself, the moving pictures?

Coyote wrote:

But I still don't get why Palpy would put Tarkin on the DS1 if he didn't trust him. Makes no sense. Why not just make him have an accident, or make a martyr of him and say the Rebels killed him. Vader in ANH is still just Palpys muscle man. What authority does he really have? Tarkin orders him around, Moffs take to him like a punk. Makes ya wonder how much power Vader really had in ANH.

Vader's power? Not much. Remember GLWI.

All the relationships and the power structure hadn't been worked out yet. Vader wasn't yet the Chosen One or Anakin Skywalker either one. Sure, he still had a part to play (or he wouldn't have so clearly and conveniently survived the Deat Star's destruction), but that the part of Luke Skywalker's personal nemesis.

One of the best things you can read to get an insight into how the OT story developed is Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays by Laurent Bouzereau. Vader's overwhelming power was rather a late development, it reveals.

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Jedi_Minch wrote:

When did the Essential Guides become canon? As freely as George Lucas has blown away the print material, I thought it was generally agreed the only truly canon source was the Saga itself, the moving pictures?

Actually, there has never been an official ruling that the movies are the only source of canon within the SW universe. It's something that has been debated on various SW message boards, but the members of JKOC have always allowed for any LFL licensed product (in the abscenece of a clear contridiction made by GL in the movies) to count as a canon source.

Quote:

Vader wasn't yet the Chosen One or Anakin Skywalker either one. Sure, he still had a part to play (or he wouldn't have so clearly and conveniently survived the Deat Star's destruction), but that the part of Luke Skywalker's personal nemesis.

That's only if you don't acknowledge Anakin/Vader as the key part in the overall prophecy. As Anakin Skywalker, he helped bring about the end of the Republic and the near extinction of the jedi order from within; then as Darth Vader he did the very same thing to the Empire and Sith also as a card-carrying member. If you look at it this way, there's a sorta balance to it all that makes Anakin/Vader live up to the "Chosen One" hype.