Does Tarkin know who Vader is? - possible EU spoilers

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

This could go into the EU or General SW boards, but since it pertains to how things may evolve in ANH, figured it was ok to post it here. If you haven't had the chance yet to read "Dark Lord - the Rise of Darth Vader" there is a part that goes as follows:

"Some are convinced that Lord Vader is a former Jedi who assisted you in your counterstrike against the order. Others believe that he was an apprentice of the late Count Dooku."
"Who is spreading these Rumors?"
"From what I have been able to ascertain, the rumors began among the special ops legions that attacked and secured the Jedi Temple. If you wish, my lord, I could pursue the matter further."
"No, Tarkin," the Emperor said. "Let the rumors persist. And let the regional governors and naval officers think what they will of Lord Vader. His identity shouldn't concern them. I am interested only in their obeying his commands, as they would mine."

From this I gathered that the Emperor did not want anyone to know Vader's former identity and not even Tarkin knew who he was. However, when you take into consideration the scene from ANH:

Vader: "He is here."
Tarkin: "Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you sure?"
Vader: "A tremor in the Force, the last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master."
Tarkin: "The Jedi are all extint, you my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

There's no real "right" or "wrong" answers to this, short of GL going into more detail in either an upcoming EU book or post ROTS TV series...so what do you think? Does Tarkin know Vader's "former" identity?

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

Tarkin probably didn't know shortly after the events of ROTS, but found out before the events of ANH.

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

I would agree with Random. Tarkin knew who Vader was in ANH, or at least he did after that conversation. And if the Imperial troops did know who Vader was it may add to the fear they would have in him and Palpy. Everyone knew who Anakin was pre Order 66, and if Anakin could fall to the Emperor, then anyone could.

Note to Krash: Not a big deal but you may want to put a spoiler alert on your post. Some of us have not read "Dark Lord - the Rise of Darth Vader" yet.

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

It'd make sense that after Anakin's injury and confinement to the suit, that everybody would think "Who is this huge guy in the big black suit?" when they first saw the reborn Vader. From ROTS, it seems like only Palpy, some clones, and medical droids were present to even know that Vader was being rebuilt; in other words, it was on the "downlo." I know that according to EU, that by the time of the OT that the hierarchy of the galaxy is apparently

1. Palpatine
2. Vader
3. Xizor

However, as far as ANH is concerned, Xizor makes no appearance, and the real number three seems to be Tarkin. If he really was that close to Vader and Palpatine prior to ANH, then I don't think it is implausible for them to let him in on Anakin's little secret. And as previously said, from his dialogue in ANH, he clearly knows that Vader was at least a former Jedi, and possibly, that he is Anakin. In the novelization of ROTS, kids idolized Obi-Wan and Anakin; it was common knowledge that they were a great Jedi team (sorta like how kids loved Jordan and Pippen on the Bulls in the early 90's and pretended to be like them when playing basketball), and it was probably common knowledge that they were Master and Apprentice. If Vader told Tarkin Obi-Wan was his old Master, I'm sure Tarkin could at least read between the lines.

Jedi_Hajile · Jedi Knight Joined: Sep 11, 2005 Posts: 279

bobina_d_arresto said that "Rogue Planet" tells about Anakin and Obi-Wan meeting Tarkin between episode I & II and that Anakin went into "dark rage" mode and force choked and killed a guy in Tarkin's presence so that's more info that Tarkin had to know Anakin's dark-side tendencies and favorite force power, which could help him "guess" who Vader was.

JediKnightPasJoDacle · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 31, 2004 Posts: 1223

Jedi_Hajile wrote:

bobina_d_arresto said that "Rogue Planet" tells about Anakin and Obi-Wan meeting Tarkin between episode I & II and that Anakin went into "dark rage" mode and force choked and killed a guy in Tarkin's presence

God, I loved that book.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

There's no real "right" or "wrong" answers to this, short of GL going into more detail in either an upcoming EU book or post ROTS TV series...so what do you think? Does Tarkin know Vader's "former" identity?

I think there *is* a right answer to this, and it is, "Yes." Vader's true identity must have been one of the poorest kept secrets in the galaxy. Luke and Leia must have been virtually the only two who didn't know.

Anakin was already known to quite a few people, being prominent among the Jedi during the Clone Wars, even before rescuing the chancellor and defeating Count Dooku single-handedly, even before his unprecedented appointment to the Council. Anakin was already Vader when he led the 501st into the Temple, making no effort to conceal his identity. Palpatine was referring to him as Vader before the armor ever went on. So at least the Clones knew the transition had taken place. It was no secret that Anakin had been Obi-Wan's apprentice, and it surely couldn't have been a mystery that he had been Obi-Wan's only apprentice. Thus, anyone who would understand Vader to be speaking of Kenobi when Vader spoke of "my old master," must surely have known Vader was indeed Anakin. Note also that Tarkin knows, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Vader *was a Jedi*: "The Jedi are extinct; their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that is left of their religion." Jedi. Jedi who survived the purge. Jedi who survived the purge *and* was apprenticed to Obi-Wan Kenobi--who else could Tarkin think Vader was?

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Jedi_Minch wrote:

I think there *is* a right answer to this, and it is, "Yes." Vader's true identity must have been one of the poorest kept secrets in the galaxy. Luke and Leia must have been virtually the only two who didn't know.

There's nothing in the movies or EU that confirmed that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader being common knowledge to anyone outside of a select few (perhaps not even Tarkin).

You mentioned the assault on the jedi temple, I doubt that was a very publicized event. In fact, "Insider" had a great feature that included the entire speech Palpatine gives proclaiming himself Emperor and there is no mention of Anakin's involvment. As far as the general public knows, the purge was committed by the clonetroopers...without the help of an "inside man."

The exploits of Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars may have grown to legendary proportions, but there was also alot of distortion of the facts in the Empire. Padme's death was blamed on the jedi, when in reality it was recently converted Sith apprentice Anakin who did it.

Tarkin may have known that Darth Vader was once a jedi, but there's nothing in ANH or even the most recent EU book "Dark Lord" that Tarkin was aware of the specifics of Vader's background. And given the level of mistrust among the Sith...I find it hard to believe either Palpatine nor Darth Vader would give a Barbara Walters interview concerning Darth Vader's origin.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

I think there *is* a right answer to this, and it is, "Yes." Vader's true identity must have been one of the poorest kept secrets in the galaxy. Luke and Leia must have been virtually the only two who didn't know.

There's nothing in the movies or EU that confirmed that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader being common knowledge to anyone outside of a select few (perhaps not even Tarkin).

And yet, the nature of the events depicted in the film lead one to believe that Vader's identity was not the secret it is said to be.

Krash wrote:

You mentioned the assault on the jedi temple, I doubt that was a very publicized event. In fact, "Insider" had a great feature that included the entire speech Palpatine gives proclaiming himself Emperor and there is no mention of Anakin's involvment. As far as the general public knows, the purge was committed by the clonetroopers...without the help of an "inside man."

He marched at the head of the 501st. Surely they, at least, knew. And if a legion knows...

Krash wrote:

The exploits of Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars may have grown to legendary proportions, but there was also alot of distortion of the facts in the Empire. Padme's death was blamed on the jedi, when in reality it was recently converted Sith apprentice Anakin who did it.

1. The Empire only lasted about twenty years. That is not a lot of time to efface all evidence of the truth from a *galactic* civilization.

2. Obi-Wan killed Padme.

Krash wrote:

Tarkin may have known that Darth Vader was once a jedi, but there's nothing in ANH or even the most recent EU book "Dark Lord" that Tarkin was aware of the specifics of Vader's background.

He knew he was once a Jedi. He knows he was instructed by Obi-Wan Kenobi. From those two pieces of information, and a cursory knowledge of the Clone Wars, anyone should be able to infer the identity of Anakin and Vader. Tarkin, so highly placed, and so early--easily inferred from his presence with Vader and the Emperor at the end of ROTS--should have had no great difficulty in doing so.

And Dark Lord is, a) inconsistent with ROTS, and b) poorly written, and c) "glorified fan fiction" as I believe Mr. Lucas has referred to the EU before.

Krash wrote:

And given the level of mistrust among the Sith...I find it hard to believe either Palpatine nor Darth Vader would give a Barbara Walters interview concerning Darth Vader's origin.

No such hideous ordeal should have been necessary. Particularly for Tarkin to figure it out, if, indeed, it was ever concealed from him. The information was there, for anyone who chose to seek it out.

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Jedi_Minch wrote:

He marched at the head of the 501st. Surely they, at least, knew. And if a legion knows...

What? They all go home and tell their clone wives, "Hey honey guess who helped us storm the jedi temple today?" These clones were bred to be totally loyal to Palpatine, if his administration spins it that they did all the dirty work...then they would swear it must be so. I can't imagine the attack on the jedi temple as a highly publicized event.

Jedi_Minch wrote:

He knew he was once a Jedi. He knows he was instructed by Obi-Wan Kenobi. From those two pieces of information, and a cursory knowledge of the Clone Wars, anyone should be able to infer the identity of Anakin and Vader.

That's alot like the initial confusion over the how Obi-Wan tell Luke that Yoda trained him, when Qui-Gon was his actual master. While I can agree that Tarkin could be somewhat aware of Vader's connection to the Jedi (a traitor) that it is doubtful Tarkin was aware of the full details of Vader's past (who he was).

Quote:

And Dark Lord is, a) inconsistent with ROTS, and b) poorly written, and c) "glorified fan fiction" as I believe Mr. Lucas has referred to the EU before.

While this would be more on-topic in the EU boards, 2 personal opinions of the book and an old quote taken out of context doesn't make your point so. Several of us got to meet Troy Denning and Timothy Zahn and they both made it clear that while they have some creative freedom with some aspects of their books...everything they do is under the watchful eye of LFL and this "glorified fan fiction" doesn't hit the bookshelves unless it fits GL's perameters.

jasconsolojediknight · Youngling Joined: Jan 30, 2006 Posts: 922

I remember reading some where in this novel that when the senate learned of the attack on the jedi temple because the jedi were going to over throw the senate it is said that Anakin was killed. Now in a ANH we hear what Vader says to tarkin. I personally don't think tarkin cared. "He say you’re the last of that die religion my friend." Then when Vader tells him about him being their he then seemed to understand the problem he could cause.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

He marched at the head of the 501st. Surely they, at least, knew. And if a legion knows...

What? They all go home and tell their clone wives, "Hey honey guess who helped us storm the jedi temple today?" These clones were bred to be totally loyal to Palpatine, if his administration spins it that they did all the dirty work...then they would swear it must be so. I can't imagine the attack on the jedi temple as a highly publicized event.

First, the Temple was a large, famous, obvious feature of the Coruscant cityscape. A legion of troops marched on it. A body of troops that large, moving on a traget of such prominence is going to leave traces. There had to be logistical support, infringement on civil jurisdictions full of civilian employees, that were not manned by clones. So, even if every trooper kept his mouth shut till his dying day...the attack was not going to be a secret, and that figure out front of the column was not going to escape notice.

Second, Publicized? Cripes, the Temple was in flames. Smoke billowing out of it, pluming across the skyline--who needed to publicize it?

Third, correct me if I'm wrong, but Palpatine made no effort to conceal the action against the Jedi so far as I know. The motives for it, and the maneuvers behind it, perhaps, but not the fact of the assault itself.

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

He knew he was once a Jedi. He knows he was instructed by Obi-Wan Kenobi. From those two pieces of information, and a cursory knowledge of the Clone Wars, anyone should be able to infer the identity of Anakin and Vader.

That's alot like the initial confusion over the how Obi-Wan tell Luke that Yoda trained him, when Qui-Gon was his actual master. While I can agree that Tarkin could be somewhat aware of Vader's connection to the Jedi (a traitor) that it is doubtful Tarkin was aware of the full details of Vader's past (who he was).

How is it like the Qui-Gon confusion? And why would Tarkin consider Vader a traitor? Would it not be more probable that, from an Imperial's POV, Vader was, in fact, the last and only *loyal* Jedi.

Krash wrote:

Quote:

And Dark Lord is, a) inconsistent with ROTS, and b) poorly written, and c) "glorified fan fiction" as I believe Mr. Lucas has referred to the EU before.

While this would be more on-topic in the EU boards,

Okay, but it was brought up in this board...

Krash wrote:

2 personal opinions of the book and an old quote taken out of context doesn't make your point so. Several of us got to meet Troy Denning and Timothy Zahn and they both made it clear that while they have some creative freedom with some aspects of their books...everything they do is under the watchful eye of LFL and this "glorified fan fiction" doesn't hit the bookshelves unless it fits GL's perameters.

The incosistency is not a matter of opinion. Read the description of Vader's prosthetics and the trouble they gave him and the reason why in the novel, then look at the film. They are not depicted as described, and therefore couldn't have caused the problems described. Unless my memory has totally failed me the book and the film don't match.

Granted, my opinion of the writing is just that, an opinion.

And...okay, they say they have to hew to the LFL licensing line, and Lucas is the final arbiter of what that is. Did they also say he reads and approves every word of every work produced in the franchise? Did they say anything about the novels and comics, etc., passed by the folks in the licensing department, going at least as far back as SOTME, which Lucas subsequently contradicted?

The quote may be old, and I may not have the original context, but it sure sums up how Lucas has treated the EU material in practice. Which is suggestive of how far we can trust the novels, particularly those not adapting the films.

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

jasconsolojediknight wrote:

I remember reading some where in this novel that when the senate learned of the attack on the jedi temple because the jedi were going to over throw the senate it is said that Anakin was killed.

I recall something about that as well. Even in the ROTS, there were reports "from the Chancellor's office" that implied that Anakin may have been at the Temple (not leading the invasion) when the attack occured. If not for the fact that Anakin went to visit Padme before departing for Mustafar (which wasn't known to that many people) it'd be easy to report that Anakin was killed along with the rest of the jedi.

TheRandomMenace · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 30, 2004 Posts: 1886

Jedi_Minch wrote:

2. Obi-Wan killed Padme.

What movie were you watching? Padme's death was clearly the result of a broken heart at the hand (figuratively and literally) of Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan had no involvement with her death. Did Anakin Force-choke her because he believed she and Obi-Wan were in cahoots with one another? Yes. But Obi-Wan was not directly responsible for Padme's death in any way.

(This post is entirely under the assumption that you honestly believe Obi-Wan killed Padme, and not that you were referring to some EU source regarding one way in which the Empire spun the truth to meet their own ends; I've read very little EU because of the inconsistencies with the movies)

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

TheRandomMenace wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

2. Obi-Wan killed Padme.

What movie were you watching? Padme's death was clearly the result of a broken heart at the hand (figuratively and literally) of Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan had no involvement with her death. Did Anakin Force-choke her because he believed she and Obi-Wan were in cahoots with one another? Yes. But Obi-Wan was not directly responsible for Padme's death in any way.

(This post is entirely under the assumption that you honestly believe Obi-Wan killed Padme, and not that you were referring to some EU source regarding one way in which the Empire spun the truth to meet their own ends; I've read very little EU because of the inconsistencies with the movies)

While Obi-Wan did not kill Padme directly, he in some ways responsible for her death. Had Obi-Wan not hitched a ride with Padme and stepped off her ship, would Anakin have choked her? Anakin felt betrayed that she brought Obi-Wan there to kill him. In the book version of RoTS Anakin also had it in his head that Obi-wan and Padme may have been foolin around behind his back. Padmes death was poorly done. I'm sorry but a young woman doesn't lose the will to live just because her husband has gone off the deep end. Especially when she is having twins.