Star Wars On Trial

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

No...I'm not talking about what we all go through when dealing with the rest of the world, but in fact a rather interesting book. This "completely unauthorized" mock trial book features a courtroom drama made up of several science fiction writers who argue the merits and faults in what is clearly regarded as the "most popular science fiction films of all time."

For the prosecution: David Brin
For the defense: Matt Stover

I thought it'd be interesting to not only mention the book, but list the charges they places agaisnt Star Wars, and see what the rest of ya think. Some of what these folks have argued has changed (or at least allowed me to see something from a "certain point of view" ) my outlook on some of the elements of the SW saga. Here are the charges:

Charge #1 - The Politics of Star Wars are anti-democratic and elitist

Charge #2 - While Claiming Mythic Significance, Star Wars portrays no admirable religous or ethical beliefs

Charge #3 - Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves

Charge #4 - Science Fiction filmmaking has been reduced by Star Wars to poorly written special effects extravaganzas

Charge #5 - Star Wars has dumbed down the perception of science fiction in the popular imagination

Charge #6 - Star Wars pretends to be science fiction, but is really fantasy

Charge #7 - Women in Star Wars are portrayed as fundamentally weak

Charge #8 - The plot holes and logical gaps in Star Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer

Ok, so I can almost hear Jedi-Minch and a few others preparing to tee off on this subject like Tiger wearing his favorite red shirt (can't wait to read it BTW) so, i'll just step back and let the trial begin!

Ghent_the_Slicer · Padawan Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 649

I agree with Charge #6, 'cause I think that it's the Magic of Myth book that says that Star Wars is space fantasy and not science fiction. I can think of quite a few characters to go against #7, though. I don't think that Mara Jade was a weak character. Leia certainly wasn't, I mean she stood up to Darth Vader and stuff like that...

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

No...I'm not talking about what we all go through when dealing with the rest of the world, but in fact a rather interesting book. This "completely unauthorized" mock trial book features a courtroom drama made up of several science fiction writers who argue the merits and faults in what is clearly regarded as the "most popular science fiction films of all time."

For the prosecution: David Brin
For the defense: Matt Stover

I've seen this book, but haven't purchased a copy. My sense has been that David Brin says some very silly things when he puts on his non-fiction hat.

Krash wrote:

I thought it'd be interesting to not only mention the book, but list the charges they places agaisnt Star Wars, and see what the rest of ya think. Some of what these folks have argued has changed (or at least allowed me to see something from a "certain point of view" ) my outlook on some of the elements of the SW saga. Here are the charges:

Charge #1 - The Politics of Star Wars are anti-democratic and elitist

Anti-democratic? If only....

First, considering the politics depicted is that of a decadent republic deteriorating into an autarchy and finally a militaristic empire, there's no way to escape depiction of democracy-with-a(nother)-black-eye.

Elitist? On what basis? And, What the heck's wrong with that?

Krash wrote:

Charge #2 - While Claiming Mythic Significance, Star Wars portrays no admirable religous or ethical beliefs

Balderdash. Unless of course you dismiss stoicism, and a general, all-American regard for decency and self-discipline as somehow "not admirable." Yoda's Marcus Aurelius with pointed ears, for corn's sake. It's a basic good-vs.-evil story, and...good wins...what's not admirable about that?

Krash wrote:

Charge #3 - Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves

1. Yes, the *novels* are, on the average, pretty weak, and can't hold up to non-franchise, genuine SF.

2. They are not driving anything off the shelves, at least not by themselves. The Star Wars section of any bookstore I've been in (and I make a lot of trips to bookstores) is usually no larger or smaller than that devoted to any one of a dozen other over-marketed franchises. Added together with the Trek section, and the Dungeons and Dragons, and the endless shelves of weak immitations of Tolkien, there's a problem, of which it would necessarilly be a part--but only a part.

And one has to ask two questions: 1) if Star Wars were to disappear tomorrow from your local B&N or Borders, would "real SF" inevitably replace it? and, 2) how many volumes of "real SF" have been purchased by people who wouldn't have been in the section poking around, had it not been for their quest for the latest in Star Wars publishing?

It seems to be non-Star Wars SF has been doing quite well lately. I see lots of classics being reissued; new authors, new books, new series coming up all the time.

Krash wrote:

Charge #4 - Science Fiction filmmaking has been reduced by Star Wars to poorly written special effects extravaganzas

Hollywood is what George Lucas--and to a lesser extent Spielberg--made it. Not just SF. But how much of the quality problem can be blamed on Lucas? He's not feeding these guys ideas; he's not writing and directing the films. He's only providing the tools to get the job done, and the example showing that it can be done. If they misuse them, that's their fault, not his.

Krash wrote:

Charge #5 - Star Wars has dumbed down the perception of science fiction in the popular imagination

Nonsense. The problem with the perception of everything in "the popular imagination" is a lot bigger than Star Wars. One lone man from Marin County, even with ILM as his ally, can't have corrupted the entire country, or even the segment of it devoted to SF in literature and film, singlehandedly. Dumbing down was well underway before Star Wars ever flickered onto a movie screen.

Krash wrote:

Charge #6 - Star Wars pretends to be science fiction, but is really fantasy

Horse Feathers! It's six samurai movies, telling a fairy tale story. Lucas has never made any assertion to the contrary--indeed, he boldly proclaimed the fantasy/fairy tale aspect of it when he made the first image of the first film a screen reading, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...." It has futuristic trappings, and plays off some SFnal conventions, but only because it was aimed at a population living in a technically advanced, space-age culture.

Now, when it comes to the books in the EU, there is the tendency to drop the fantastical and fairy tale elements, and portray the milieu as merely another space-faring galactic civilization, with generic adventures and assorted SF problems: alien invasions, technological threats from super weapons, or such. And it's a bad thing, and a sad thing, because so much of it, without that fantastic element, never rises above the level of SF hackwork. A lot of the Old Bantam books could have been easily converted to Trek novels, with a few name-and-place substitutions.

Krash wrote:

Charge #7 - Women in Star Wars are portrayed as fundamentally weak

Now that's rich. Princess Leia. Controls, or at least dominates, Solo and Skywalker. She beats Vader's mind-probe. She goes toe-to-toe with Tarkin. She seems to be the supreme commander at Echo Base. Where's the fundamental weakness?

Krash wrote:

Charge #8 - The plot holes and logical gaps in Star Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer

Oh, for--I'm not exactly a nitwit, and here I am. I've been watching, and pondering, and writing about these films for thirty years. I know I'm not alone. This is just a crude put-down of SW fans.

Krash wrote:

Ok, so I can almost hear Jedi-Minch and a few others preparing to tee off on this subject like Tiger wearing his favorite red shirt (can't wait to read it BTW) so, i'll just step back and let the trial begin!

So, how well did your insight serve you? This sound anything like what you could almost hear? Smile

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

I'll try and share some of the book's points as well as my own takes on them. Hey, Coyote, you think my typing ability was insane BEFORE...look out! Laughing

Jedi_Minch wrote:

My sense has been that David Brin says some very silly things when he puts on his non-fiction hat.

Personally, this guy gets downright snooty sometimes when he talks about SW and SW fans. It was entertaining to read the part where Stover gets to cross-examine him and has to be reminded to keep it PG...cause I want to cuss this guy out just as bad.

Quote:

Now that's rich. Princess Leia. Controls, or at least dominates, Solo and Skywalker. She beats Vader's mind-probe. She goes toe-to-toe with Tarkin. She seems to be the supreme commander at Echo Base. Where's the fundamental weakness?

I'm reading this part right now...they admit Leia showed promise in the beginning of ANH, but soon took a backseat to the male characters. By ESB, she's getting lead around Echo Base by Han Solo like a lost child and the only reason she's a tag-along is to be Han's girlfriend.

And (so far) they're ripping on Padme like her midriff in AOTC. Rolling Eyes

Ghent_the_Slicer · Padawan Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 649

Krash wrote:

And (so far) they're ripping on Padme like her midriff in AOTC. Rolling Eyes

Don't get me started on how stupid that whole thing was. I mean, really, I find it very difficult to believe that it was a "coincidence" that the Nexu just "happened" to claw at Padme, whose shirt just "happened" to be really poorly tailored all along the one seam. Really, had that happened to anyone else, they'd've gotten a scratch and a claw-mark rip in their shirt. Really (great, now I've gotten started... Wink

), what bugs me about the prequel trilogy is Hayden Christensen's just being in them, for these (being only a few) reasons:

1) He's got no resemblance to Jake Lloyd, whatsoever. You can put some picture on the back of Jedi Quest to convince us all that that's how Anakin aged, but I'm still not convinced,

2) He's gotta be the lousiest actor in the galaxy, (...and just when we thought that Mark Hamill's NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! line couldn't be topped, then Hayden has lines like I killed them! I killed them all...like animals! as he throws tools around like a spoiled little kid, and pretty much every line he had on Mustafar was waaaaaaaaaay overdone...) why did they pick him?

He was obviously not chosen for his acting abilities or his looking like Jake Lloyd. I'm guessing that he (and Natalie Portman, for that matter) were just in there as "eye candy". Why else would Christensen have gotten the job, if it's not for his resemblance to the previous portrayal of the character or his acting abilities. Lucas was probably just trying to find a way to sell more merchandise to a broader audience of people (i.e. all the girls who could care less about Star Wars, but just want to see Hayden Christensen).

Really, Carrey Fisher's portrayal of Leia was great, 'cause she shows that Leia can be a strong leader when she has to, but when she's not standing up against Tarkin or Vader, she's still a strong character. Padme' just wasn't anything like Leia, she's not really a strong character to begin with. First she's a little kid acting as the queen of a planet (which was really the only part that she showed some signs of being strong), and then she's crying about Anakin in Episode II & III. I know that some of you are probably not going to agree with me about this stuff, but that's my opinion, so sorry to all of you Portman & Christensen fans...

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

My sense has been that David Brin says some very silly things when he puts on his non-fiction hat.

Personally, this guy gets downright snooty sometimes when he talks about SW and SW fans. It was entertaining to read the part where Stover gets to cross-examine him and has to be reminded to keep it PG...cause I want to cuss this guy out just as bad.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here. Brin's attitude--my BP doesn't need the spike. Wink

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Now that's rich. Princess Leia. Controls, or at least dominates, Solo and Skywalker. She beats Vader's mind-probe. She goes toe-to-toe with Tarkin. She seems to be the supreme commander at Echo Base. Where's the fundamental weakness?

I'm reading this part right now...they admit Leia showed promise in the beginning of ANH, but soon took a backseat to the male characters. By ESB, she's getting lead around Echo Base by Han Solo like a lost child and the only reason she's a tag-along is to be Han's girlfriend.

Now, that's just silly. In ESB, Who gave the pilots their orders before the battle? Who ordered the evacuation? Princess Leia.

Sure, after the base was penetrated, Solo took her in hand--mainly to keep her from getting herself killed standing around being selfless and determined. For the romance to blossom as it was intended to, those two had to end up together, so they were cut off from the transport and Solo's ship was left as the only way to get them off the planet. I suppose they could have had her in the lead, maybe Solo could have been clonked on the head by a falling ice-cube, so Leia had to do a fireman's carry, drag him and Threepio aboard the Falcon and get them all to some kind of safety, but--y'know, Captain Solo is, whatchercallit...a hero, and he's got to have something heroic to do, or he's just scenery.

During the escape from the Imperial Fleet, she's not in a "strong" role, but, that's Solo's show: it's his ship, he has to fly it, and fix it, and there's no precedent for the princess being either ace pilot or a skilled hyperdrive tech. She just gets to help out, like everyone else aboard the ship.

Then look what happens as soon as Our Heroes are sprung from their captivity in Cloud City: Leia's back in charge. She's leading, she's *controlling the Wookiee* when the Wookiee is bent on avenging Solo on Calrissian's throat. When they make it to the Falcon and take off, she's at the controls, and she, backed up by the Wookiee, makes the calls, including the apparently suicidal call to go back, for Luke.

If they really wanted to argue the weakness of the character, they'd focus on ROTJ. She goes through a complete costume and hairstyle change during her brief stay with the Ewoks--for no good reason. What were they doing, having a dress-up party while the Alliance force was out there twisting in the wind?

Krash wrote:

And (so far) they're ripping on Padme like her midriff in AOTC. Rolling Eyes

But, it was such a nice midriff...

Jedi Minch

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Ghent_the_Slicer wrote:

Don't get me started on how stupid that whole thing was. I mean, really, I find it very difficult to believe that it was a "coincidence" that the Nexu just "happened" to claw at Padme, whose shirt just "happened" to be really poorly tailored all along the one seam. Really, had that happened to anyone else, they'd've gotten a scratch and a claw-mark rip in their shirt.

I may be mistaken...but didn't the wound and the shredding effect in fact appear on the back of her top?

Ghent_the_Slicer wrote:

(great, now I've gotten started... Wink

), what bugs me about the prequel trilogy is Hayden Christensen's just being in them, for these (being only a few) reasons:

1) He's got no resemblance to Jake Lloyd, whatsoever. You can put some picture on the back of Jedi Quest to convince us all that that's how Anakin aged, but I'm still not convinced,

The real question is not whether he resembles Jake Lloyd, but whether he look enough like Anakin Skywalker. Anakin's had four different physical bodies. Does Christensen fall outside the grouping? I've not thought that he does, at least enough to be bothered by it.

Ghent_the_Slicer wrote:

2) He's gotta be the lousiest actor in the galaxy, (...and just when we thought that Mark Hamill's NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! line couldn't be topped, then Hayden has lines like I killed them! I killed them all...like animals! as he throws tools around like a spoiled little kid, and pretty much every line he had on Mustafar was waaaaaaaaaay overdone...) why did they pick him?

First, have you noticed that even (supposedly) very talented actors, such as Ewan McGreggor and Liam Neeson and even Natalie Portman, have turned in some pretty mixed performances, to say the least, in these films?

My point being, with George Lucas's difficulty directing live performers, and the goofy dialog Lucas stuck them with, it can't all be the fault of the actors, even in the case of Christensen.

Second, the official line was that he was selected precisely because he was so good at the parts like those on Mustafar you consider over-the-top. That may or may not be true, we may or may not agree with the judgement it displays, but...there it is. (Personally, I thought the Mustafar dialog was way over the top, at least once Obi-Wan made his entrance. It didn't ring true, especially to Vader as we see him in the Original Trilogy.)

Jedi Minch

Ghent_the_Slicer · Padawan Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 649

Jedi_Minch wrote:

I may be mistaken...but didn't the wound and the shredding effect in fact appear on the back of her top?

Her entire shirt got shredded, though. What's with that?

And I'm still sticking with what I said about Hayden's performance in the II and III. I agree that Mustafar was WAAAAAAAAAAY overdone. Ewan was the only one with an okay part. Portman & Christensen were both just goofy (i.e. "If you're not my friend, then you're my enemy!!!!!!!!!!", etc.).

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

[quote="Ghent_the_Slicer"]

Jedi_Minch wrote:

I may be mistaken...but didn't the wound and the shredding effect in fact appear on the back of her top?

Her entire shirt got shredded, though. What's with that?

Well...hmmm...Senator's don't get the top quality merchandise Queens do on Naboo? It was as much skin as GL could get past the PG rating gate?

Ghent_the_Slicer wrote:

And I'm still sticking with what I said about Hayden's performance in the II and III. I agree that Mustafar was WAAAAAAAAAAY overdone. Ewan was the only one with an okay part. Portman & Christensen were both just goofy (i.e. "If you're not my friend, then you're my enemy!!!!!!!!!!", etc.).

Is that the exact line? If it's just the words, well, you can't hang that on Christensen: "Written by George Lucas" after all. And since it also says "Directed by Darth Plaid," I maintain that we can never know for sure just how much of the blame for the performance was Christensen's, and how much Lucas's.

Jedi Minch

Coyote · Jedi Knight Joined: Aug 15, 2004 Posts: 416

Ghent_the_Slicer wrote:

And I'm still sticking with what I said about Hayden's performance in the II and III. I agree that Mustafar was WAAAAAAAAAAY overdone. Ewan was the only one with an okay part. Portman & Christensen were both just goofy (i.e. "If you're not my friend, then you're my enemy!!!!!!!!!!", etc.).

Is that the exact line? If it's just the words, well, you can't hang that on Christensen: "Written by George Lucas" after all. And since it also says "Directed by Darth Plaid," I maintain that we can never know for sure just how much of the blame for the performance was Christensen's, and how much Lucas's.

Jedi Minch[/quote]

As Harrison Ford so put it "George, you can write this "stuff" but we sure as hell can't say it. " GL's script writing ability has alway been his major drawback. He seems to know how he wants the conversation to start and end, but getting the middle kills him.

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Quote:

Don't get me started on how stupid that whole thing was.

Wasn't trying to...way to take a simple analogy and run with it though. Rolling Eyes

Let's get back to the topic of the book ok?

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Now, that's just silly. In ESB, Who gave the pilots their orders before the battle? Who ordered the evacuation? Princess Leia.

These guys tend to form their own opinion and find a way to fit any/everything to their preconcieved perspective. While I don't subscribe to their main argument I will give them points on this one. Jeanne Cavelos (who argues for the prosecution) makes the argument that:

In Episode V, the crawl informs us that freedom fighters have been "led by Luke Skywalker"

While I can understand that since Luke is the lead character and it works from a movie perspective, he's been with the Rebellion what a couple months? They also argue that while Luke is now a commander and Han is a general, it was Rieekan who gives the evac orders and Leia is relegated to a low level officer who gets to give the pilots a mini-pep rally.

Keith R A DeCandido wrote a really good article in defense in "The Madness of King George" citing that:

Far from promoting an elitist agenda, George Lucas has shown us that the elitists, the ones who are born to power - like say, sons of presidents who feel the family connections entitle them to power over everyone actually competent to hold elected office - are the ones who lead us to ruin.

I found it interesting in (love the title) "The Son of Skywalker Must Not Become a Jackass" that Scott Lynchargues the the reason Luke succeeds wher Anakin fails is that he rejects the more pompus senses of entitlement, superiority, and emotional detachment that his mentors failed to truely kindle in him

Malo-ha · Recruiting Councillor Joined: Mar 27, 2004 Posts: 786

Sounds interesting. I put the book on hold but there are several people ahead of me on the list.

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Coyote wrote:

As Harrison Ford so put it "George, you can write this "stuff" but we sure as hell can't say it. " GL's script writing ability has alway been his major drawback. He seems to know how he wants the conversation to start and end, but getting the middle kills him.

Indeed. He should always employ a screenwriter, if for no other reason than to fix the dialog. (Not that it helped in AotC: It has to be a good screenwriter) Lucas himself has said that the dialog isn't important, because these are basically silent movies.

How's that, Darth Plaid? I can understand his point that they're intensely visual, and that his ideas are intensely visual, but--y'know, there's a soundtrack with dialog, which, should it not matter, shouldn't be there. But it is there, and he should get it through his head that it does matter, and that if it's neglected it distracts from the dazzling visuals.

Jedi Minch

Jedi_Minch · Youngling Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 158

Krash wrote:

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Now, that's just silly. In ESB, Who gave the pilots their orders before the battle? Who ordered the evacuation? Princess Leia.

These guys tend to form their own opinion and find a way to fit any/everything to their preconcieved perspective. While I don't subscribe to their main argument I will give them points on this one. Jeanne Cavelos (who argues for the prosecution) makes the argument that:

In Episode V, the crawl informs us that freedom fighters have been "led by Luke Skywalker"

While I can understand that since Luke is the lead character and it works from a movie perspective, he's been with the Rebellion what a couple months? They also argue that while Luke is now a commander and Han is a general, it was Rieekan who gives the evac orders and Leia is relegated to a low level officer who gets to give the pilots a mini-pep rally.

But this is not the case. First, the crawl says that a group led by Luke Skywalker has established the base. That, to me, means that he led the initial party. He certainly isn't in command at the beginning of the film. As I noted, it's the princess who's giving the orders. If you look at the dialog, Rieekan says, "We'd better start the evacuation." That's an observation, not an order; when it comes down to the brass tacks, it's the princess who tells the controllers to issue the evacuation code for the base. And, if you look at what she's telling the pilots, it takes a lot of willful imagination to construe it as a peptalk. The tone is grave, the instructions precise: she's ordering the operation.

As to Luke and Han's rank...well, first, the only rank given Solo in ESB iscaptain, as in "Captain Solo"--whichi s how just about everyone but Lando, Luke and Leia refer to him, most of the time. He didn't get the promotion to general until the Battle of Endor. Second, Luke's been with the rebellion a lot longer than a couple of months at that point. I don't have an official time line at hand, and can't find one suitable on the 'net, but my recollection is that a period of years, at least two, had elapsed since the victory at Yavin IV.

Krash wrote:

Keith R A DeCandido wrote a really good article in defense in "The Madness of King George" citing that:

Far from promoting an elitist agenda, George Lucas has shown us that the elitists, the ones who are born to power - like say, sons of presidents who feel the family connections entitle them to power over everyone actually competent to hold elected office - are the ones who lead us to ruin.

Well, that's...interesting, I suppose. I can't say as I much care for the veiled (thinly) real world politicking going on in that quote, or that I subscribe to the idea that elites lead to ruin. In the Saga, who are the heroes? A mixed lot, but prominent among them are senators, queens, princesses, Jedi-knights, masters and padawans, from lowest to highest an elite.

Krash wrote:

I found it interesting in (love the title) "The Son of Skywalker Must Not Become a Jackass" that Scott Lynchargues the the reason Luke succeeds wher Anakin fails is that he rejects the more pompus senses of entitlement, superiority, and emotional detachment that his mentors failed to truely kindle in him

But...Luke always fails, at everything, after the Battle of Yavin. Thus he is perpetually being rescued by Han, Leia, Darth Vader... Even at Yavin, he wouldn't have succeeded if not for the intervention of Obi-Wan's spectral voice and the cannon aboard the Millennium Falcon. And what could be more pompous, more evident of a sense of superiority, than for a Padawannabe to brush off the teachings of Obi-Wan and Yoda, and assume he can turn a Sith back into a Jedi? What good rejecting theirs, if he replaces it with his own?

Anakin destroyed the Emperor, Anakin balanced the Force, Anakin saved the galaxy...

At what did Luke succeed at which Anakin failed? I know of nothing. He even botched his suicide, calling for help from his father when Palpatine turned on the Force Lightning. The death-obsessed twit...

Jedi Minch

Krash · Jedi Knight Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 3495

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Well, that's...interesting, I suppose. I can't say as I much care for the veiled (thinly) real world politicking going on in that quote, or that I subscribe to the idea that elites lead to ruin. In the Saga, who are the heroes? A mixed lot, but prominent among them are senators, queens, princesses, Jedi-knights, masters and padawans, from lowest to highest an elite.

In terms of the real world comparision, let's just say you and I have vastly different opinions on what was said...and suggest we leave it at that.

As for who the heroes of the SW saga really are, one thing this article has drawn my attention to is the fact that in both trilogies it's the average person who actually make a difference in their worlds. In TPM, it was the Gungan and Naboo cultures banding together (with a pair of jedi to advise and assist) who freed themselves from the Trade Federation.

In the OT, it's not the 2 jedi in hiding (something the prosecution wants to know why they didn't help the Rebellion directly) who bring down the Empire...it's folks like Wedge Antilles, Han Solo, Mon Mothma, even EWOKS! and the rest of the everyday people bring down Palpatine's mighty Empire. Or as my new best friend Keith puts it:

Action speak louder then words. Lots of people speechify in the Star Wars films, and they all come to a bad end. The biggest heroes are the ones who suit up, ante up and kick in. Heck, two of the biggest heroes (Chewbacca and R2D2) don't get a line of intelligible dialogue between them.

Since the whole argument of the prosecution on this charge was that GL is promoting a push towards fuedalistic society where the ones born to power are better then the rest of us schmucks, I think it's fair to say it's not the jedi or nobility that save the day...it's the everyday people doing extraordinary things.

Jedi_Minch wrote:

And what could be more pompous, more evident of a sense of superiority, than for a Padawannabe to brush off the teachings of Obi-Wan and Yoda, and assume he can turn a Sith back into a Jedi? What good rejecting theirs, if he replaces it with his own?

Jedi_Minch wrote:

Anakin destroyed the Emperor, Anakin balanced the Force, Anakin saved the galaxy...

That's the short answer, but without Luke's effort to reach out to the man inside the suit...Vader would have sat back and watched Luke die. But we could go into more on this one point in the ROTJ forum.

Jedi_Minch wrote:

At what did Luke succeed at which Anakin failed? I know of nothing. He even botched his suicide, calling for help from his father when Palpatine turned on the Force Lightning. The death-obsessed twit...

Again, we could go into this at more length in the ROTJ forum (subtle nudge) but again I think what Luke succeeds in is that when faced with the Skywalker temper, despite losing his cool for a moment...he stopped himself, where years ago his father went postal and tried justifying everything to himself.

Ok, in the effort to bring in a few more perspectives....(where my librarians at?) let's shift things to one of the other charges the book raises:

Charge #3 - Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves
Here's where the snooty side of the prosecution really takes shape. On the other hand, I really enjoyed Karen Traviss' contribution to the defense titled "or how Star Wars Loosened my Corsets" who talks about how working on the Republic Commando series, working with an already established (so you don' have to explain how things like Hyperspace work) genre gives writers the freedom to let their creativity expand...which makes them better writers when they go back to their own original work.

Granted, she seems to take the whole concept of the motives for the clone army and blames the jedi for using this "slave army" when in reality it is really Palpatine setting them up for disaster and not their choice (some EU books even go into the moral objections many jedi had to using the clones this way). Coyote, tell your girl she better lighten up or some of us "jedi" are gonna levitate that "Ferrari" she talks (read the article, you'll get it) about and drop it on her Wizard of Oz style Wink